Articles, Blog

Scott Nelson: Does Red Light Therapy Actually Work?

February 5, 2020

Hey folks, this is Abel James and thanks so much for joining us on the Fat-Burning Man Show where we talk about real food and real results. Okay, so at this point you’ve probably heard all about red light therapy, haven’t you? Maybe you’ve heard that near-infrared and red light therapy can help you with inflammation collagen production and skin health in general. Or maybe you’ve heard red light improves recovery, sleep, and even cognition. It can make you think better. Maybe red light therapy can do our taxes, too. But if you’re wondering how to separate the hype from reality this is definitely the show for you. As you know I can be highly skeptical of new tech that promises the moon, but it’s also important in this wacky world of health to have an open mind and be willing to experiment, and I have to say I’m fascinated by light therapy in general. As you know we had a very challenging past six months and year when my wife Alyson and I were actually poisoned by carbon monoxide at a rental. It was a really… it was the hardest thing we’ve ever gone through. I can say that we used every little trick in recovery that we’ve discovered along our travels. And red light therapy was a critical part of our recovery. We went to mineral baths all around the Rocky Mountains, we’ve done red light therapy, different colored light therapies, and different types of red light therapy devices in all different forms, from you know, I think the cheapest that I’ve tried using near-infrared and red light therapy was a bulb that was $30 or $40 bucks. And since you know we have been doing this video and audio production stuff for about a decade now I just so happened to have a good place to plug it into, and several options actually. And then the next step up from that, you can kind of get these little heating infrared devices, and then you can get these panels, and then you can get these giant devices that cost many thousands of dollars. So, if you’re at all curious about making sense of this light therapy world, you’re in the right place. On today’s episode we’re here with Scott Nelson. You’re going to learn why Olympic and pro athletes are experimenting with this crazy red light therapy. You’re going to learn the difference between saunas and steam rooms and this kind of therapy. And also the link between light therapy and improved cognitive function. Before we get to the show though, here’s a quick review for the podcast that came in on Stitcher from Emily. She says: “I’ve been listening to Abel’s podcast for years and love his practical advice and topical discussions with health and wellness experts. Instead of telling you what to do, Abel is on the health and wellness journey with you, sharing his day-to-day realities and struggles along the way. Plus, he gives perspective on extreme health trends like Keto, and goes beyond health and wellness to dive into topics like how to be productive and accomplish your creative goals. All in all he’s someone you feel you can instantly trust and relate to.” -Emily Thank you so much for this sincere review. What you said here, Emily, is interesting. “He gives perspective on extreme health trends like Keto.” So keto as we all know is taking over the world and everyone’s into it and supporting it and all that, but as as we all know at this point there is no silver bullet. There is no perfect way of eating forever. This is always going to be a moving target, so it’s important that we all keep this in perspective. And I think because there are a lot of people who aren’t quite like me out there in the world of health especially in the podcasting world just kind of like giving their advice or offering their expertise and and everything in between, it’s really important to try to bring the pendulum back to the other side from time to time. So I need your help to do that. I need you to not buy keto products that have sugar in them, making them not keto, for example, right? People can abuse all of these words and that’s usually what happens with any trend that may have good intentions or even good therapies behind it. All trends will eventually be abused in this crazy world we live in also it is very important Emily, as you bring up, to work on your creative goals. Because as you find to get your health you realize that health is freedom, but even more specifically and accurately I think when your health is taken away you realize that your freedom is gone. So once you have that freedom of your health and you’re feeling energetic and you’re feeling good again, you shed that excess weight and all the rest of it. All of a sudden, you do have this excess energy. And the question becomes: What do you do with it? And I have I know a lot of healers who listen to this — doctors, nurses, chiropractors, and so many other people like that, but many, many creatives, and people who are out there in the film and entertainment industries and music industries also listen to this show. And I think it’s really important that we try to integrate and share our knowledge because it’s not about being just healthy or having a 6-pack, or any of these superficial results. It’s about being a whole person who’s balanced and living a spiritually enriched and fulfilling life. I think that’s the ultimate goal. And as you folks listen to this show I think you’ve got to realize that sometimes we have to go deep to talk about these things. So anyway, Emily, I really appreciate you writing in. And if you’re out there and you have gotten results or maybe you’re struggling and you have a question, please drop me a line. Now some quick exciting news before we get to this interview, my new book “Designer Babies Still Get Scabies” is now an International Bestseller in 7 countries and counting. We got #1 Bestseller and Hot New Release in Poetry in the U.S. and then we hit #1 Bestseller in Humor in France, Germany, and even Japan. Number one Bestseller in Poetry in Australia, the UK and Canada. And so I just wanted to quickly say to all of you out there who have supported this kind of different and off-the-wall project, I really appreciate your support. And to all of the creatives out there, in some ways it’s better than ever, but also it’s harder than ever. So we need to band together and help support each other. So, if you’re interested in collaborating or you’re interested in a creative project of any kind, drop me a line, get in touch things have gotten crazy out there, in case you haven’t noticed. So if you’re looking to boost your immune system during pandemic season, then be sure to visit You’ll find shelf-stable nutrients that can get you through the worst of apocalypses. These are the same supplements we’ve been taking daily to optimize our own health and I hope that you like them as much as we do. And if you’d like a monster discount make sure you go to and get the Subscribe and Save bundle, because then you get a bunch of money off and you also get free access to our 24/7 international coaching community — the Fat-Burning Tribe. So, just go to and pick up your favorite health boosting goodies. We have a lot more coming that are the most delicious we’ve ever put out. I don’t want to be more specific, because I don’t exactly know when we’re going to be launching them, but I’m really excited about it. Stay tuned over at Thank you once again for your support. All of your purchases from,,, and — you help us keep the lights on. We couldn’t do this without you. And please if you’d like to support us don’t forget to share this episode with your friends and family. And hit that Subscribe button or leave your review. I really appreciate it. Alright, on to this show with Scott Nelson where we’re chatting about why Olympic and pro athletes are turning to red light therapy, the difference between the sauna and the steam room, the link between light therapy and improved cognitive function, photobiomodulation and how it helps stimulate cell regeneration, and tons more. Let’s go hang out with Scott. Alright folks, Scott Nelson is the co-founder of Joovv, and they were kind enough to send over a device to try before this interview so I could at least experientially know a little bit of what I’m talking about here. But prior to co-founding Joovv, Scott spent his professional career in leadership positions with some of the largest medical devices device companies in the world in his spare time. Scott is also the host of Medsider Radio — a top-ranked medical device podcast. Scott, thank you so much for joining us. man. Abel, nice to be on the show. I’m really looking forward to the conversation. Yeah well and thank you for sending over the device because prior to that I had tried infrared therapy and light therapy just a little bit. My mom who’s a holistic nurse practitioner and author she got really into it and honestly it was the first time that I’d really had the full body experience. And after the first time, my wife and I have done it pretty much every day for at least ten minutes or so. And it’s amazing the physiological change that you feel when you’re standing in front of those. Maybe not right away, but after a few minutes there’s a whole lot of stuff that starts happening. So why don’t you just kind of for most of the people who are listening, they might not have tried it, as well, so let’s just give an overview of what’s happening here. Sure yeah. Well, we’ll start high-level but we can certainly go deeper as the conversation unfolds. But what we’re talking about is light therapy. That’s how it’s often referred to in the public media. But it’s actually a subspecialty of medicine in the world of academia and is referred to as photobiomodulation or PBM for short. Some people that have used this type of therapy actually call it low-level laser light therapy, and so whatever acronym you use, I think the most important point is just to understand that specific wavelengths of light have a unique mechanism of action. They impact our biology in a very unique way that help ourselves throughout all of our body produce more ATP energy and because of that a core mechanism of action enabling ourselves to basically function better more energy, and it leads to a whole host of benefits. And they’re really wide-ranging, everything from better looking skin through increased collagen production, faster muscle recovery, increased peak athletic performance, if you’re kind of a fitness enthusiast, body contouring or weight loss, actually enhanced cognitive function, reduced joint pain and inflammation. It almost begins to sound a little bit like a late-night QVC commercial, but the cool thing about light therapy or photobiomodulation is all of those benefits that I just kind of rattled off are all supported by published peer-reviewed clinical literature. In fact there’s over 3000 published manuscripts in various journals on the science and the benefits of light therapy. So definitely supported by a ton of research and there’s a whole host of benefits that you can even experience by just by using this type of stuff on a daily basis. So, I’m curious from our body’s perspective, what are our bodies thinking when they experience something like this? Is like, “Am I standing next to the sun right now?” Or where did this even come from? Yeah, you got it. And I think that leads to almost a little bit of a higher-level conversation around just the impact that light has on our bodies. I’m sure most of your listeners have kind of have come up to speed may be on the negative impact that excess blue light can have especially on a night Yeah, especially you know at night and during during the evenings as the sun sets. What bright blue light or white light acts as a signal to our circadian rhythm, right? It tells our our bodies that it’s our bodies begin to think that it’s daytime sun that we should be awake. When in reality our body we should be going into more of a parasympathetic state you know and begin to prepare for bed. Well, the reality of that conversation is that lights in different wavelengths of light just impact our biology in different ways kind of like macronutrients right we all understand that proteins carbs and fats our bodies metabolize the different those different macronutrients in different ways and at different times of the day so lights is very it’s a very kind of similar analogy in that blue light can be good in terms of resetting our circadian rhythm in the morning right with the natural sunrise um but can be negative if we’re exposed to it you know as the Sun sets it’s just it impacts our biology the same thing with with red and near-infrared light which is present in daytime Sun like all the time and the Ray out the kind of that the harsh truth is that we really don’t get enough of that healthy red and infrared light during during the day in fact there’s a pretty well-known stat that Americans now spend 93% of our time indoors right away from natural sunlight right and I know you’re in you’re in Colorado you probably get you know maybe outside of the randoms the the the snow front that comes through you know in the winter you get a decent amount of Sun right yeah well that’s that’s not the case promote for most of us you know that you know not just in America but throughout the world and whether you live in a climate that doesn’t it doesn’t get a lot of Sun or whether you just have we are busy jobs where we’re inside most the time and so that that stat if you think about it is pretty alarming you know and and you know before people are starting Joovv and getting into kind of the the kind of beginning to understand the impact that light has in our health I was in the same boat you know going commuting to a corporate a corporate job you know and I was probably inside away from natural sunlight 95% of the time you know and so that’s just that’s so that’s such a drastically different lifestyle than even 150 200 years ago and our biological systems just haven’t haven’t you know adapted or evolved that fast and so um I think that kind of the bigger story I’m trying to tell is that natural light is is really important especially specific wavelengths of light and it’s just hard to get that healthy wave those healthy wavelengths of light on a consistent basis and that’s kind of where you know I like therapy device kind of comes into play it’s similar to like supplementing your diet with a with a multivitamin there’s some sort of other supplement it’s a good way to kind of supplement your your light diet I’m using air quotes for the listeners here your light diet you know it’s just it’s just by you know being exposed to these healthy wavelengths of light on it because on a consistent basis but at the same time we’re a lot of people are coming from is like the whole tanning bed thing so it’s like when when man starts fiddling with machine it’s like our tanning beds good for us a lot of bodybuilders did it for a while but it’s like so let’s let’s differentiate what we’re talking about here because it’s not like all light is it the same right exactly and that’s the important point to remember is that all these wavelengths of light it’s best just to view them within the context of like macronutrients they’re not all the same our body’s responded indifferently so like a tanning bed right you that that delivers mostly you UV light and UV light can be you know some of you be like can be good in terms of helping our bodies produce more vitamin D right our bodies respond to that type of wavelength of light and in turn produce vitamin D but there’s also some downsides to UV light too is especially like xx excess exposure t v– light which can cause burning as all of us know so our bodies respond to UV light in various ways right in the proper with the proper amount UV light can help our bodies produce more vitamin D right but with excess UV light our bodies can convert our skin converter which is which is a you know an inflammatory response to an excess amount of that that type of light yeah well with red and near-infrared light which we’re talking about just different kinds of light kind of like proteins versus carbs just a different type of light but there’s really no downsides at all to red and near-infrared light there’s there’s I mean it’s hard to get too much of it there’s not really any sort of negative ramifications in terms of burning your skin or anything like that it’s just it’s really like um almost the equivalent of drinking healthy water it’s hard to man you really really got to overdo it you know if you’re drinking too much water the same kind of concept applies to red and near-infrared light yeah so let’s go a little deeper what is happening to the body ATP a little more specifically yeah so these these these wavelengths of light that I keep talking about red and near-infrared light they fall within a very narrow spectrum so the light spectrum is actually really broad you’ve got visible light you’ve got infrared light which I think most of us have probably heard about at some point in their lives but infrared light specifically is actually really broad it’s it’s uh it’s anywhere from about a thousand nanometers to twenty thousand nanometers and that’s so it’s like a you know almost like the distance of a football field so to speak so it’s a really broad range and so what we’re talking about here is is near-infrared so it’s actually very very narrow spectrum within the within the infrared kind of window so to speak and then an invisible red light and these two wavelengths of light red and near-infrared light have a unique ability to help our cells produce more energy and there’s a whole host there’s a whole cascade of events that happen during cellular respiration that that helped that basically help ourselves to function more what one of the core actions that we that were kind of talking about is is giving ourselves the ability to produce more more adenosine triphosphate and in because of that that’s that’s that’s in essence our um it’s it’s like almost like tuning up the engine of a car right at the mitochondrial level you’re the engine of your of your car the engine of your cells you know your mitochondria are just fine-tuned when exposed to this this type of light they’re functioning better they’re functioning more more efficiently on etc so that that’s what that’s one that’s that’s kind of the core mechanism of act or mechanism of action at play but there’s also this cascade that I kind of referred to where you get enhanced gene transcription you get a shift in redox state at the cellular level those are just kind of two of the two the byproducts by in essence stimulating your by stimulating the mitochondria of your cells you get this you get this this very healthy down stream these healthy downstream reactions and and that’s why because of that kind of that core kind of foundational mechanism of action that’s why you get such a wide variety of benefits because we have cells throughout our entire body really outside of outside of our blood cells you know the mitochondria exist everywhere in our bodies you know and so that’s why I picked this concept of delivering these healthy wavelengths of light to your entire body not just through a targeted targeted device is is actually really beneficial for overall health yeah and one of the things I noticed wasn’t just kind of like a subtle well-being which was one of the things it was when I it was it was one of my first like runs after the ice melted on the roads and it’s hilly here and I went for like five or six miles and my calf’s were screaming you know it’s like when when you’re getting kind of like back into shape and doing rough stuff like that you you can pay for it sometimes and so I was paying for a little bit and kind of expecting to but I think I did maybe 10 or 20 minutes and and it was yeah it was almost instantaneously better like the aching went away the tightness everything just seemed like it loosened up a little bit and then by the next morning I was really surprised I was expecting to be super sore but I wasn’t I was still somewhat sore it you know it didn’t cure everything but I was really shocked by the difference when used for recovery yeah that’s what that’s probably one of the areas like muscle recovery and then maybe like acute joint pain where where people seem to respond the fastest you know so if you’re dealing with like a you know a sort elbow right or sore knee that maybe you tweaked or if you’re you know a fitness enthusiast or even a even a professional athlete that you you know how your body’s supposed to respond after that type of workout and you’re like okay wow that I’m sore but not nearly as sore as I am usually and those are probably the two areas that that we see customers respond to the fast even kind of on that note with professional athletes we do have a lot of different pro athletes using using our full-body devices now and it’s that very thing it’s they notice they notice exactly they’re so they’re so in tune with their bodies right and how they typically respond after a certain type of training and by exposing their you know their entire body to these healthy wavelengths of right light red and near-infrared they the the their muscles just recover that much that much faster so it’s it’s those two areas and then sleep sleep is another big category that a lot of a lot of people report back pretty pretty instantaneous benefits you know by by using using this type you know this type of therapy on a consistent basis and most of those people are you know they’re wearing more rings or they’re using like the Whiting’s you know sleep pad device or even like the lute band and they can see like yes I mean on my rim in my deep sleep are better when I use this type of therapy even if it’s just for ten minutes a day it’s really funny because like you probably imagine I’m sense stuff all the time and and there was just so many things to try and in the world of health and fitness and he’s so rare that I actually find something or was like wow this just works it seems to work that’s amazing but that’s that must be a really exciting thing to kind of have and share with with all these athletes and other people for the first time because I would imagine you know these athletes are probably they’ve tried way more stuff than I have so what what is there response usually can you share any story what one the first response is usually pretty pretty cynical right I mean they’re like they’re introduced to it from maybe like their trainer or someone else to kind of and there’s in the in their in their network and they’re like what I stand in front of this light and I’m supposed to get better like after that’s because that seems bogus and that that to me is very understandable because I was like I’ve spent my entire career in like traditional like Western med tech right like with arterial stents and balloons and a threatening catheters like you know quote unquote you know real real kind of medical stuff and so when I was first introduced to this type of therapy I was super skeptical but if you if you do just a little bit of research right on you know even if it’s something just on like PubMed there’s there’s loads and loads of studies that support this type of therapy and then if you just give it a try on a consistent basis you’ll you there’s no doubt you’ll you’ll begin to notice benefits whether it’s you know whether if it’s like you know in the kind of the fitness arena with faster muscle recovery whether it’s whether it’s just with tracking sleep benefits like better skin health you know to the increased collagen production those benefits tend to be you know taking a little bit longer to see some of that’s because we look at ourselves in the mirror every day so it’s just harder to notice the subtle benefits but that is kind of the there’s like two kind of core there’s kind of two different reactions that we often see is like first first skepticism then they’ll then you know most people will give it a shot they’re like wow this this feels better you know it feels it like I’m I notice it feels it feels very soothing right whether they do it in the morning or evening and then after consistent uses it’s like I’m sold like I this is part of my daily routine you know cuz any way anyone can fit you know can fit something in for 10 minutes a day and so that’s kind of the typical kind of path that most most people follow and it’s very similar the tasks that I kind of followed when first being introduced to to light therapy yeah and when was that how long has this been used as a therapy yes it’s it’s been a low-level light therapy or low-level laser therapy or photobiomodulation it’s actually been been studied for quite some time on in the late 20th century so like 1950s and beyond most of the time you had to liber this type of these type of wavelengths of light through a laser just because that was really the only type of equipment that you could deliver precise wavelength of light at the right at the right power to produce a clinically relevant dose of energy well then you fast forwarded to the to the 1990s and that’s when NASA began to invest our funds some some research with the use of LEDs specifically to uh they were specifically researching of course like how can this impact positively impact our ash astronauts in space yeah and so that that’s where that’s sit since then and they and they begin to see like really positive results with with the use of LEDs that’s when that’s when sort of this space has really begin to to expand because LEDs you can deliver very precise wavelengths of light through LEDs they’re a lot less expensive to manufacture versus a laser and then you can begin to introduce these wavelengths of light over a much broader treatment area so instead of being limited to just like a small little targeted area of your body you can now deliver these healthy wavelengths of light across across a really broad surface area and so kind of if you fast forward into the early really the early 2000s to date especially over the last probably five years there’s there’s a ton of published research and it’s it’s it’s only continuing most of it kind of does follow into um we’re like ourselves we didn’t do as a company in partnership with other academic researchers are beginning to really invest in other other other sort of therapeutic arenas and whether or not light therapy has an impact so things like gut health hormone related categories you know test testosterone and an estrogen related areas so it’s kind of like this this cool thing that’s been proven time and time again for like these core benefit areas like muscle recovery and joint pain relief inflammation etc but it’s gonna be fun to like really begin to expand upon that and study the impact that these types of wavelengths of light have and other you know and other really important aspects of health too yeah and that’s just another thing I guess like to help explain it a little more or better it’s not just light that lands on your skin it stops right there’s a lot more going on going through your body and penetrating so can we talk that a little bit like do you have to shine it on all your skin and swirl around in circles or how does that work yeah the key to this is just making sure that your skin is exposed to this this type of light I mean if you’re wearing a shirt or any type of clothing that that is going to block this type of light so you definitely definitely want a skin exposure but I think you bring up a really good point because you know we talked a little a little bit about like the changes from you know laser based devices to LED based devices and with with the kind of the as technology has evolved in the in the LED space if you’re using the right chipsets and using the right drivers you can actually deliver a lot of power through LEDs and what that allows you to do is is push that light deeper into the body so with red light most of that energy is absorbed in the superficial layers of your skin the dermis and epidermis of your skin it’s great for skin health and other really superficial tissues but near-infrared light combined with the right power actually has unique ability to penetrate pretty deep into our bodies in fact it can penetrate through burrow through bone the energy does dissipate as it travels through bone of course and that’s why it’s important to use like a pretty high-powered device but when you look at the published literature with respect to joint pain relief inflammation relief cognitive function reduced symptoms from from brain injuries like TBI as an example most of the time is it’s near-infrared light that’s being used with with high-power and that just showcases the unique ability for for near-infrared light to penetrate deep into our body so the main I guess what I’m trying to get at is is there is a difference between red and near-infrared light very similar mechanism of action at the cellular level but the biggest difference between the two is depth of penetration red light is absorbed more readily near superficial tissues whereas near-infrared light can penetrate deeper into your in your bodies and so like when people talk about light therapy a lot of times historically they would just be talking about one of those at a time right correct correct and and like as an example on this type of therapy has been used by for quite some time in the traditional skincare world with estheticians and in med spas and they’ll actually refer to it as LED therapy ironically enough and most of the time it’s just red light it’s so it’s very you know it’s it’s it’s great for skin health right with institutions are and med spas are kind of concerned with but near-infrared light is is is that that’s where like you use that when you look at published clinical literature it’s oftentimes near-infrared light is used is used more routinely just because it has a has a much broader impact because of its ability to penetrate deeper um and that’s you know and most people that that are probably listening this like we like we discussed earlier familiar with infrared light within the context of a spa but that’s even different right that’s that’s not the same as near-infrared light a good dry a good you know dry sauna or infrared saunas oftentimes delivering mid and far infrared and kind of kind of going back to our original conversation around our bodies respond to these different wavelengths of light well mid and far infrared those wavelengths of light have a unique ability to heat up our body tissues right which is why they’re great for sauna you know because sauna that’s the whole goal right is to is to induce heat stress and so mid and far infrared wavelengths of light are great for that that when we’re when we’re talked about light therapy and helping your cells produce more energy that’s where red and really more specifically near-infrared light is most beneficial what are some other misconceptions that a lot of people are coming with yeah one of the most common questions is especially as people are kind of either evaluating the therapy or first using it is like is it safe to look at yeah yeah because it’s especially if you’re if you’re if the device incorporates bright red light at a high intensity it’s very bright as you as you can probably attest to your like you know you first first heard on a high quality light therapy device it’s like whoa you know that’s super bright is it safe to look at which is a national a national question but depending depending on the device I mean I can speak to ours we had you know as part of my cut of the FDA registration process there’s a whole host of tests that you have to do to learn those is photo biological safety testing for your eyes and so that’s one of the reasons like with our devices we don’t include eyewear because it’s not it’s not required these devices are very completely safe to look at but having said that all right I should say like in addition to that um these wavelengths of light are actually very healthy for your eyes there’s a lot of peer-reviewed published literature’s that suggest that they now help with you know disease states like macular degeneration but even just acute acute enhancements with vision just overall vision and it kind of makes sense when you think about it like are our eyeballs our retinas they have cells too and by helping the cells in your retina function function better or function at a higher with more efficiency and it would make sense that you see the same type of improvements when it comes to you know vision and eye health as well so that’s one of the questions that we often get is like it’s it’s not safe to look at I’ve gotta wear you know glasses of some type but the reality is actually it’s actually very very healthy for vision well yeah one thing I noticed was exactly what you described like when we first fired the thing up a microwave right now um but after doing it for a few weeks now it’s it’s like not bright when I look at it does that make sense it’s it’s like the brightness is not freaky it’s not startling it’s actually more relaxing it’s like my body connected the dots or became less sensitive I think it’s almost like a good way to put it – is your body almost it begins to respond and connect the dots um that sounds may be a little bit kind of vague but like I I have I have it’s the same experience with me like anymore when I even first turn it on it’s not I mean it’s bright but it’s not early as like bright is when you you know you turn it on you know for the first time so what we typically encourage people do is just close you know if it’s super bright just close your eyes for the first you know part of the treatment and you’re you know the the rods and cones and your in your eyes begin to shift and kind of interact with that light so it becomes sort of easier to sort of get used to and you do you do kind of become accustomed to it over time you know as you’ve experienced so yeah it’s actually it’s actually very healthy for eyes you know and this kind of this is an interesting kind of side story but one of one it’s sort of the pioneers and kind of sort of Helio therapy or light therapy was a gentleman is his name is completely escaping me right now but he was he’s really well known to Jonna Jonna does the same he’s really well known for his work and time-lapse photography and he became he became sort of aware of like therapy by using time-lapse photography in a schoolroom with kids that are you know exposed to like bright you know white light all day long and seeing how like they become more fatigued okay over a day and then he began to just just implement more national sunlight into his into his like kind of his daily routines weekly routine and he noticed significant improvements with chronic pain chronic joint pain ADEA that he always suffered with and one of the biggest changes he made is when he went we go to the beach or get exposed to natural sunlight he’d take off his sunglasses and begin to just receive like full-spectrum sunlight just through his eyes and that has that’s when he begin to notice some really really profound changes and so that’s just sort of an anecdotal story but you know if you’re more of like a science nerd and want to get into the science like there’s there’s a fair amount of data that does definitely showcase that these these wavelengths of light can be very healthy for provision yeah it’s fascinating and it really it does something to when you when the light goes off and then your eyes you know I don’t know how to describe that affect you and when your entire perception of color has shifted to the other side yeah a lot of people will respond it’s funny what it will do like a like a conference or some sort of events and people are using this for the first time they’re like what did the color change is it is it now are you – shining green light at and at me now it’s right it’s the same it’s the same it’s the same thing just the rods and cones and your eyes do you can do a adjust as the therapies on and I’m agin I’ve kind of kind of adjust once it’s once it’s off as well um but no that’s that’s kind of a very healthy kind of kind of thing it’s just it’s it’s it’s very natural but that I think the important point here is that it’s just it’s really beneficial to just you know for your for your eyes to just be exposed to these you know these types of healthy of healthy wavelengths it’s a lot easier with NIR and Fred light because NIR and Fred is invisible to the to the human eye so it’s a lot easier just to kind of you know use mirror and freely and in fact my wife walked and you know when we’re in bed she often shine you know near in one of our little handheld devices just on her on her forehead you know and it’s not doesn’t illuminate the room and and that’s there’s there’s a there’s a fair amount of evidence that show gaze is near inferred light and you know can it kind of help help help shift sort of that yeah that sympathetic stated help help you know relax relax your body you know as you prepped for bedtime so so yeah that’s but anyway kind of circling back to your question April yeah that’s one of the one of the most common questions that we get is like is this is this is super bright is it safe to look at but yeah the answer with with our device yes it’s completely fine one thing that I really like about it even though it is you know exogenous obviously it’s outside of the body is how non-invasive it is compared to so many other things that people try to achieve even just fractions of the same result whether it be you know recovery or anti-inflammatory benefits or whatever people are taking all sorts of drugs trying all sorts of things you know whereas you can use light to actually change change your outcomes it’s fascinating it is it sounds so funny and that’s that’s one of the other you know common questions as simple as it is is like what do I really just shine this on myself for ten minutes that’s that’s it it’s like well yeah is that it as simple as that is if that’s that’s really what it comes down to is you know get get pretty close to the device and you know let it let it shine on your onion on your body for about about ten minutes but it’s just amazing and I think that just kind of that that um that that the simplicity of this the non-invasive to your point and the nature of light therapy and the simplicity of it causes people to kind of like question it you know does it doesn’t work it’s like this seems kind of silly and it kind of goes back to our original part of our earlier discussion around you know skepticism but the cool thing is is like this is like in my career kind of in traditional like met med tech and this falls into that umbrella a little bit I’ve never seen a therapy that’s supported by this this amount of clinical research so there’s there’s kind of a certain aspect that you kind of have to believe in the science but if you do give it a shot and start to using it on a consistent basis I you know I’m I’m not gonna guarantee anything per se but I think there’s a probably a strong chance that you’ll see some some pretty noticeable benefits with consistent use but it’s not like one of those Health’s health things that’s been underground for a long time and all these companies have been rat and you know just rallying against it and all that it’s more just like it seems to me at least a meeting of technology and kind of the right timing for people to be ready for it does that sound right yeah totally totally it’s been I mean it’s it’s you know a lot of the research does date back to kind of the mid the mid 20th century and in fact if you even go back like further than that it was fairly commonplace and like the would be like the late 19th century early 20 century for like even even hospitals to kind of wheel patients out into the national sunlight if I may they did that for the purposes of Attilio therapy in fact we’re even starting to see a trend within like even hospitals to date that are beginning to incorporate more healthy different types of light inside a hospital other than light right right white a bright blue light right I mean it yeah exactly like why is this taking so long to get to this point but I think I think it’s just kind of beginning to understand that light plays an important role in our health and it really shouldn’t be underappreciated ideally everyone can spend just more time in natural sunlight like like I am right now but that’s just it’s it’s hard to do it’s kind of like you know making it making the comparison or making me and making me or drawing the parallel that it’s easy for everyone just to adopt a paleo kind of diet or an ancestral type of diet well yeah that’s a great first step but like some people need to kind of you know get their baby steps to get there know what I mean and so a lot of people just can’t you know go spend 30 minutes a day in natural sunlight you know they just don’t have the type of lifestyle that affords it and that’s why you know kind of supplementing supplementing your lifestyle with healthy wavelengths of light you know is kind of an important point that most most people just kind of under appreciate what about is is there like a threshold that you pass cuz I’m trying to figure out like we have a small light that we’ve had for a little while but it’s like this big right and I know you have some smaller units you sent us one of the larger ones you’ve got like a giant six one yeah so how does that all work with the body yeah yeah that’s another common question that comes up is like how long do I use it like at what distance and some this can get really complicated is that in essence it’s a physics related like conversation but yeah I think the important point to note is that coverage and power are probably two – critical factors to any type of light therapy device and what I mean by we’ll start with the first one coverage like the size of the device is basically the treatment area you know you can in and what I mean by that is is um you know for those listening you’re not gonna maybe get in this analogy the best but I’m wholly an iPhone in front of me right now if I if I hold the iPhone at two feet away from my hand right my hand is still illuminated by the light there’s no doubt right but the the energy dose that actually reaches my hand is is so low that you really have to use a light therapy device for a really long period of time for my hand in that example to receive any sort of like clinically relevant dose of energy right and so distance distance and kind of distance and coverage area are really important and like really the the the reality is that at standing it really anything beyond about twelve inches from a light therapy device the the dosage really the dosage that actually reaches your body drops off dramatically and so I think the moral of the story here is like you got to be pretty close to a light therapy device for to receive a clinically relevant dose of energy in a short amount of time um there’s you know we’ve seen some various images online where someone’s standing you know they’ve got a light therapy device and they’re standing you know three or four feet away and they’re thinking ah it’s covering my whole body well I mean maybe it looks to be that way but like the energy that’s actually reaching your body is so drastically low that it’s there’s no really therapeutic effect at all that’s happening and so um so that’s what I mean like the size of the device is almost like a direct it’s almost like a direct one-to-one correlation between the size and device in the area of your body that actually is treating ya if that makes sense yeah um so that’s why I like the the full-body device that that that you have it’s literally like head to toe right it’s like it’s six feet tall and about you know two feet wide or so something like that and that’s basically about the treatment area is the size of the device and then kind of the second the second part of that story and it’s and they’re somewhat interrelated is power and the power that’s that’s delivered from the from the device so we’re not talking about watts that the device consumes right you’re used to everyone’s loose suit you know shopping for a light bulb at a home improvement store and you see you know sixty watts or whatever we’re not talking about the wattage or the power that the device consumes we’re actually talking about the power that’s delivered from the device that actually reaches your body and so that that’s kind of that’s kind of hard to explain in a conversation like that but maybe we’ll provide a link to kind of for people that want to learn more about this topic in the in the show notes but what I’m trying to say is you want you want to light therapy device that delivers a pretty solid amount of power and you need to be pretty close to the device to receive a clinically relevant dose of energy and that’s why, you know, when it comes to our product specifically, we generally recommend about three to six inches or so from the device for about 10 minutes. And based on kind of our dosage calculations that’s a pretty good amount of energy for most people, you know, for general kind of overall wellness. Now if you’re trying to treat something specific, you know, like sore joints or if you like high-performance athlete and you want to treat your sore muscles, that’s a little bit different, where you can, you know, go a little bit longer you know instead of 10 minutes, maybe go 15 minutes, and instead of going for a lot longer, you know, thirty or forty-five minutes, you actually probably want to do just multiple sessions per day, instead of going for one long session And I think that’s just more in line almost like with giving yourselves a little bit of a rest, because there’s only so much energy that we can take in in a given period of time. And it’s if you go longer it’s not necessarily that you’re going to have negative downstream ramifications, it’s just more like a lot of diminishing returns. So basically if you’re using one of our devices at the recommended treatment distance of about 3″ – 6″ inches, after about 20 minutes in that specific treatment area, there’s really not a lot of additive benefits beyond that. Yeah, it’s better just to kind of stop and then maybe give yourself a couple hours, and then do it again a little bit later in the day. That makes sense. Yeah, okay so you’re out in the sun right now, too. So, how do you balance light therapy with just natural light that’s out there? Yeah, that’s a great question, and it’s the the first step that we recommend for anyone, you know, if you’re new to this topic of like how light impacts your health. And that it’s actually pretty relevant you know to optimize your health whether you’re trying to treat something specifically or just trying to fine tune your body. The first step we recommend is just try to get more natural sunlight on a daily basis. Go outside for you know 15 – 20 minutes. You don’t have to be take off your clothes, just kind of just get more natural sunlight on a daily basis — that’s step number one. But you know if you’re getting I would argue that if you’re getting like an hour of natural sunlight and you’re at decent latitude, if you’re in a northern climate maybe a little bit different, but like right now I’m in Southern California. If I’m out in the Sun and most of my body is exposed for about an hour I’m getting probably close to a million joules of energy, believe it or not, in that in an hour. That’s a lot of energy. That’s enough light for most people to kind of really begin to see a lot of benefits. But most people aren’t going to spend an hour, myself included, in the sun I just don’t have the schedule that affords that. I was especially with skin exposure right it’s not really appropriate to strip down at work. Exactly, yeah. It’s like, if you’re not used to that like excess UV light exposure can have, you know, kind of be sort of damaging, yeah, and then to your point, I’ve got neighbors. I think most people that are discussion have neighbors like they’re probably not gonna like think that’s too cool for you to kind of strip down and and get full spectrum sunlight during the day. And so that’s why, like for me personally, if I go to the beach on Saturday with the kids and I get some nice sun exposure, I probably don’t need to do light therapy that day. But every other day where I’m not outside for a prolonged period of time, it’s just a good healthy thing to do. And for 10 minutes of the day nice the you’re one of our larger full body systems on top of a vibration plate I just do some prep work for 10 minutes it’s a really nice kind of way to kind of reset reset sort of my body for it for the day and then it I’m also you know getting a ton of healthy light you know not too dissimilar to like taking a nice high-quality like multivitamin or something like that it’s kind of a very similar very similar concept so that’s probably the best way I would think about kind of that that topic of like natural sunlight versus supplementing kind of your new lifestyle with the light therapy devices is you know it’s if you’re if you’re super healthy and you’re eating like a really like high-quality ancestral kind of Paleo diet theoretically you probably don’t need a supplement right maybe but if if you’re not able to do that all the time you may need to supplement your diet with the multivitamin so kind of kind of very similar sort of analogy goes light yeah that makes sense I can’t believe it but this has gone by so fast we’re almost out of time but before we go could you please tell folks what you’re working on also a little bit more about where to find you guys yeah yeah so the best place to find us is jus vom so it’s j2 O’s and TVs so it’s short for rejuvenate so just jube calm if you google like red light therapy or cheap light therapy you’ll find us as well but that’s that’s probably the best the best place to start and I would recommend going to two places on our site one is if you’re a science nerd like myself go to the learn page there’s a whole host of really well sourced long-form articles on various topics when it comes to light therapy so everything for muscle recovery to joint pain inflammation whatever tons of articles there if you want to stay a high level and just kind of get an idea of like what people are saying about our devices we post all of all of the reviews to our reviews page –you’ll it’s pretty easy to find out on our website and you can see what people have to say in their own words so those are probably the two the two areas that I direct people to that are are interested in kind of learning a little bit more about about light therapy and if you’re on social where we’re @JoovvSocial on on on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. So if you just do a search for red light therapy or Joovv you’ll find us there, as well. Awesome. Well, Scott, this is fascinating, fascinating stuff. It seems so promising. You must be psyched. Yeah, it’s fun to be a part of something that’s supported by so much science and it’s kind of cool to like introduce people to the impact that light has on our health, you know, for the first time. You know I mean? So yeah, it’s fun to be a part of it. Right on. Well, thanks so much, Scott. I really appreciate it. Awesome. Thanks Abel. I enjoyed the conversation. This episode is brought to you by listeners like you and Future Greens. Let me ask you this: How many servings of veggies have you had so far today? hmm How about this week? Like it or not recent studies show that 9 out of 10 of us do not eat the recommended amount of daily fruits and veggies. Now if you’re one of those uncompromising health nuts who gets more than 10 servings of veggies a day you can ignore what I’m about to say. 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Just head over to to get the scoop on Future Greens and you can save 20% when you select Subscribe and Save. All you have to do is visit to get the deal. Thanks for listening. Well, hey there, listener. This is Abel one more time and I just want to say thank you for listening to this episode of the Fat-Burning Man Show. If you liked it don’t forget to hit that Subscribe button wherever you might be listening to or watching this show right now. And if you have a second, please leave me a quick review for the Fat-Burning Man show. I read every single one of them and every time you leave a review, it gives us a little boost in the rankings and that helps other people find this show. And if you can think of someone else who might enjoy and benefit from this free show, please take a second to share it with a friend or a family member. If they’re like, “What is this Fat- Burning Man thing? 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  • Reply Jade Rose January 31, 2020 at 2:58 pm

    Thankyou very interesting update!

    I received red light therapy for folliculitis with
    good results.

  • Reply Jiffer January 31, 2020 at 2:59 pm

    Able James, dedicates his life for your health!

  • Reply Eugene Lynch February 1, 2020 at 1:40 am

    Abel, apt name. Well done again.

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